“Islam vs. Islamist”
I found this review of the movie called “Islam vs. Islamist” on a blog called “A View from the Right”. The movie is very controversial, in fact PBS who helped fund the movie, refused to show it during prime time.
The part I find interesting about this review is that it points out the flaws in NEOCON logic, as well as the LEFT, on the Middle East. NEOCONS think we can convert the culture to be like the West and the LEFT believes in “happy talk” about the issues with Islam. Please read and tell us what you think.
“Islam versus Islamists: Voices from the Muslim Center,” a movie that was produced by Frank Gaffney for the current PBS series on Islam but was then rejected by PBS, was shown in a special screening in a Manhattan movie theater last evening to which I was invited. The movie is very good, and it is a scandal that PBS has spiked it. It consists largely of interviews with various hard-line Muslims in North America and Europe who explain very clearly what they’re about: the Islamization of the societies in which they live, something to which they are commanded by their religion and which, as one of them happily puts it, their host societies have given them the “margin” to pursue. Alongside these very confident and articulate exponents of sharia, several moderate Muslims, the heroes of the movie, are featured. In a telling pattern (the significance of which the filmmakers themselves don’t seem to catch, see below), after the movie describes and interviews each of these moderates, we are told that the entire Muslim community in the city where each moderate lives is against him, is hostile to him, and sees him as not a true Muslim. In one instance, the moderate Muslim in Paris has a 24 hour a day security detail to protect his life from his fellow Muslims who he revealed in a film he made about them.
As I sat there listening, I despaired for the future of the West. More than ever it was evident that there are only two views of Islam that monopolize mainstream discourse. On one hand, there is the leftist, anti-Western view, institutionalized at PBS, which sees Muslims as culturally enriching victims of Western meanness whom we must embrace. And there is the “right,” “pro-Western” (actually pro-modern secularism) view, which does criticize Islam–but the Islam it criticizes is this supposedly tiny and unrepresentative group of “Islamo-fascists,” while it imagines that Islam itself is a nice, good thing that we must embrace. The left says Islam is good, period; the right says that apart from the tiny group of the “Islamists,” who are dangerous but who are not real Muslims, Islam is good, period. This latter view of Islam so informs the minds of “conservatives” than even when they make a movie explicitly showing that the real power within Islam is jihadist and pro-sharia, they will interpret that movie as saying that moderate Muslims are the true Muslims.Neoconservatives, as I have observed a thousand times, refuse to respond to arguments from their right. Their self-concept is that they are in a heroic war against the left. Since the left sees them as extreme right-wingers and excludes them, as PBS excluded Gaffney’s movie, the neocons see themselves as being as far-right as any reasonable person can possibly be, and thus they cannot conceive that their own position is actually a liberal position open to
legitimate criticism from conservatives. Therefore they automatically and rudely dismiss any criticism from their right as crackpottery, as Gaffney dismissed mine.And that, as I said, is the landscape of mainstream American politics when it comes to Islam: on one side, the anti-American, pro-jihadist left, and on the other side, the deluded, neocon “right,” which imagines that it is defending America from its jihadist enemies, but in reality is legitimizing and empowering jihad by telling people that the vast majority of Muslims are moderates whom we should welcome into our country.
Who believes in “happy talk”?
The whole article is a joke. It wants to boil everything down into simplisitic fundamentalist terms. Why do “conservatives” see themselves the say way Osama sees himself? It’s all about victimization and a holy war against the “other”.
I think this guy overcomplicates his views. For example I’ve never heard a neocon say most Muslims are moderates who should be welcome into this country. Of course illegal aliens yeah. That’s what they think about illegal aliens from south of the border. Trusting the neocon formula for saving this country would be suicide.
And at this point I don’t know if “conservative” falls into the “left” or the “right”. Because a conservative would tend to “stick to his guns” as to why we are fighting. First is was to get Bin Laden. Then removing Saddam, WMDs, spreading Democracy, kill or convert, Islamofascism, and now the dreaded centrifuges possessed by the next HITLER!!
NEOCONS do think we can change the region by having the Muslims vote. They never figured out that they would vote for to get rid of or limit rights of all non- Muslims!
Also they did not understand all the differences between Muslims!
NEONCONS are big on open borders!
Biden is the one who first used the “happy talk” line for people in your party who are very naive about the situation we created in Iraq by going in!
Caroline
I agree. This guy needs to look in the mirror. The geopolitical world is complicated enough without having to bring religion into the formula at all. And the best way to make it “religious” is to muck around in somebody else’s religion simply to fine the bad stuff.
(FIND the bad stuff)
And by criticizing or over analyzing Islam in a military context these people are also tying religion to our own military and government. Thus empowering the islamo fascists and creating our own fascism too. Because with all this fingerpointing, we’re left with what’s left over. “Judeo-Christian” values. Nothing against Judaism but I don’t know of many Jews who are fond of the term. I would imagine that some Jews cringe when they hear it. Tying religions together by artificial means!!
Bill
The point is we can not change a culture by just giving people the right to vote!
In fact they tend to vote in their own and show no respect to minority views!
We have issues in our country but we do not have a genocide or civil war after each election.
Also we cannot under estimate the hate for the West.
John
We got plenty of folks to vote and get the “blue finger” but as soon as we turn around they us the MIDDLE FINGER!! Of course they are going to vote to get us outta there!!
John,
Just because Biden said it makes him right? He didn’t cite anyone did he? He just throws out comments for others to glean the meaning of. Biden supports the neocon agenda. Why would you cite him?
What an idiot. Spoken like a true paleocon…attack with no merit…use labels…blah, blah…no wonder you like this writer John.
Bart and caroline
Both agree WOW!
caroline
If Biden is a NEOCON what does that make Hillary?
John,
Obviously you haven’t looked at Biden’s record or you wouldn’t be asking that question.
PS. It’s not the same as Hillary’s.
There is a better chance, Dubai, a Muslim country with 95% Muslim population, flocking there from many other nations where Muslims live, will change radical Islam than we will.
As they modernize, moderate, and grow in prosperity, they are attracting a lot of Muslims who are tied of the “old ways.” Of course the radicals say that is terrible and that Muslims are abandoning their faith, probably. But really what radicals Islamic leaders are afraid of is that they are losing their power over those who seek a better life in Dubai.
The U.S. has to make some hard choice about what its image in the Middle East is, not with Radicals, we know what that is, but with the nations of Islam who want peace and progress and prosperity.
Are really moderate Muslim’s the majority? If so, are they being muted by the minority out of fear?
Jan, the US ME relationship has not worked out so well in terms of the ME being very vocal and actioned against the minority hardliners who use terror as a way to get what they want. The fact of the ME “friends” still allow the teaching of hatered towards the west and in particular, the US.
John, good article to post. When I first heard of PBS making, then canceling this feature, PBS shold not be supported of us, US, but by many of the people who have responded to this issue.
caroline
Show my how Hillary is not a NEOCON?
For being policeman of the world, open borders and trade deals that kill American workers!
I would call that three for three!
John,
She’s not a social conservative nor does she believe that tax cuts are the answer to every problem. You know better but you are pretending to be dumb. Heck, you may be more of a neocon than Hillary since you think you should pander to the fundies. Neocons love them some fundies don’t they?
caroline
NEOCON has to do with economics and foreign policy not social issues. Some call pro choice NEOCONS are called NEOLIBS!
You would not call Pat Buchanan a NEOCON. In fact while Hillary was voting for the war it was Buchanan who was calling them NEOCONS!
But bottom line it is a philosophy that thinks we should control and solve the world’s problems! This is why from Hillary’s own words that she voted for the Iraq war. Hillary thinks even if we found WMD that the result would have been different in Iraq! She made it clear it was not the policy but the intelligence that was wrong.
And now we know she did have the intelligence reports telling her not to go to Iraq! And what is her excuse that she did not read it!
Do you understand she has never criticized the strategy only that she trusted Bush so much she did not read the intelligence report!
And this is the person you think that will help get us out of this mess?
There’s no better way to piss off a Muslim (or a Christian or Jew) than criticizing their religion. So just by examining it under the microscope, you’re altering the percentages of moderates vs. radicals.
Bill
Good point!
John,
Social conservatism is one of the cornerstones of neoconservatism. You keep making up a definition so that you can call anyone a Neocon that you want to.
Pat Buchanan is not a neocon because he doesn’t have all THREE CORNERSTONES in his philosophy.
Hillary has a better chance of getting us out of this mess than any of the Republican front runners. They are all stay the course. Your choice could be “do something” or “stay the course”. Americans will prefer “do something” over stay the course. You are making good the enemy of perfect. Just plan on staying home in ‘08. No major candidate will meet your litmus tests.
caroline
FYI
The Friction with paleoconservatism
Main article: Neoconservative – Paleoconservative Conflict
Disputes over Israel and public policy contributed to a sharp conflict with “paleoconservatives,” starting in the 1980s. The movement’s name (”old conservative”) was taken as a rebuke to the “neo” side. The “paleocons” view the neoconservatives as “militarist social democrats” and interlopers who deviate from traditional conservatism agenda on issues as diverse as federalism, immigration, foreign policy, the welfare state, and in some cases abortion, feminism and homosexuality. All of this leads to a debate over what counts as conservatism.[citation needed]
The paleoconservatives argue that neoconservatives (and Straussians) are an illegitimate addition to the conservative movement. Pat Buchanan calls neoconservatism “a globalist, interventionist, open borders ideology.”[27] The open rift is often traced back to a 1981 dispute over Ronald Reagan’s nomination of Mel Bradford, a Southerner, to run the National Endowment for the Humanities. Bradford withdrew after neoconservatives complained that he had criticized Abraham Lincoln; the paleoconservatives supported Bradford.
Besides Buchanan and Bradford, the most prominent paleoconservatives include Paul Craig Roberts, Paul Gottfried, Thomas Fleming, Chilton Williamson, Joseph Sobran, and Clyde N. Wilson. The two leading paleoconservative publications are Chronicles and The American Conservative, which Buchanan helped create. In addition, paleolibertarianism is a parallel movement that stresses free market economics;
READ MORE
Pat Buchanan is calling people neocons because of immigration policy? Well, that’s incorrect according to the definition of neoconservative.
caroline
Wrong he has made it clear it was the overall policy. And he was against the Iraq war while Hillary voted for it!
Not according to what you have referenced above. The paleocons agree with the neocons in everything except for foreign policy and trade policy.
You are really afraid of Hillary aren’t you? No Republican is going to win in ‘08 so perhaps you start agitating for a group of you guys to break off from the GOP. All the GOP nominees did the exact same thing Hillary did yet you are always screaming about Hillary.
Hillary, be scared, very scared. Run, dont walk, run!
I find it interesting that a certain paper she wrote in college is off limits to the public.
She needs to work on her southern accent when she is down south btw.
Islam and Islamism are identical twins to the max.
Post #31, probably why you don’t hear the moderate muslim speak out agianst the violence and killings of innocent people.
Who believes in “happy talk”?
All the liberals… who else?
I agree with this “on one side, the anti-American, pro-jihadist left.”
But this is a bunch of junk: ” and on the other side, the deluded, neocon “right,” which imagines that it is defending America from its jihadist enemies.”
So anybody that sees radical Islam for the threats that it is and comes up with a plan to confront it – is a NEOCON? That is just a bunch of hogwash. I guess 9/11 never happened too. Do we need to get hit again to convince you it’s real. We’ve killed over 5000 Al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq, and thousands of other various assorted trash jihadis. Those are people that were trained and cannot attack us. So don’t tell me it’s some imagined enemy. Or even worse “we are just creating more terrorists”. That is the most pathetic excuse for a whiny liberal logic I have ever heard from the defeatist left. You are living in the worlds of your self created denial.
And equally deafening from the left are no plans on how they would deal with them – accept sit down and have a ‘happy talk’ with them. All the dems are interested in is voting against the war after they voted for it. All they want to do is attack Bush. Obviously they can’t figure out how to attack the real enemy – so they made Bush the enemy.
There are always legitimate discussions as how to best fight an enemy – but to classify anybody that wants to defend their country and western civilization as being a ‘right wing neocon’ is just childish. It is typical of the sick world we live in. And to sabotage your own country for political advantage while they stand in front of the American flag like Reid and Pelosi do is just disgusting.
It seems to me there a lot of Americans that are more interested in defeating us in Iraq than finding a way to succeed and win. Just so they can prove their little self-righteous egos were right. They are the ones using the war for political advantage
That to me is pathetic statement about a lot of Americans and our sense of national integrity. That the Dems want to use this war to gain political power back. They don’t want to fight it, they want to use it. It makes me sick. It makes me want to puke. I wish you could all get your dumb asses blown up so you could learn the hard way. But, unfortunately the terrorists are not selective and more innocent than stupid people would get killed. But you would deserve it. You are the idiots that caused 9/11.
I am sick and tired of the fog of defeatism that is spreading over the land like a cancer. We are suppose to be one nation under God. Not a bunch of back stabbing Moveon.org/Pink Code losers uniting to defeat the hated NEOCONS.
Grow up.
When liberals learn to hate and fight terrorists the way they hate and fight American conservatives – then we will be getting somewhere in this war. Until then we will just keep getting defeated from within by the stupid liberals.
Happy Fourth of July – I’m celebrating this year because we whipped the heck out all the Indians and took their land and made a great country called America out of it. And the defeatist liberals weren’t able stop us then. But the sickness grows.
Even the Indians knew how to fight. Something our sophisticated progressive liberal friends have forgotten.
Bill, you said”There’s no better way to piss off a Muslim (or a Christian or Jew) than criticizing their religion.”
So tell me Bill how do Greenlanders find themselves attacked by Islamics? Far as I know Greenland has never invaded an Islamic country or published anything slanderous about Islam and yet from Denmark we get this:Because Greenlanders have repeatedly been attacked by Arab and Somali immigrants in the city of Århus, Danish authorities have started an information campaign in local schools and a slide show showing photos from Greenland with comments in Arabic. Greenlanders have been subject to rock throwing, harassment and assaults by Arabs. “Their football matches and events during Greenland’s National Day have also been interrupted by rock throwing. A large number of security guards had to be employed to keep the attackers at bay. According to the chairman of the Multicultural Association in Gellerup, Rabhi Azad-Ahmad, the attacks are caused by ignorance and prejudice, and because young Arabs and Somalis are looking for easy targets to assault in order to send a message of strength to other groups. Several of the Greenlanders have problems with finding a place to live in other parts of the town, but the Århus municipality will try to accommodate those wishing to move to other apartments in order to escape the racist violence.
Also Germany for the first time has to hire security guards to patrol schools because of violent attacks on teachers and nonislamics by those loving, caring, people of the Religion of Peace.
Mike, excellent posting #35. I think countries are at the point that they should not allow Islamics into the country and kick out anyone who is that causes problems. When I say that I’m talking about entire families of anyone who causes problems, including relatives. Anyone of the Islam religion talking hate, kick them out. Put them on a plan and take them back to their country. Sell their assets to fund a “how to be politically correct” program for those that are still in the country.
justbuildthefence, post #34. You said it well. Mike’s posting #35 further points out what our and other countries are facing in terms of aggressive attacks.
Time go get off mid east oil dependency, kick them out of our countries and tell them to eat their sand and drink their oil.
Probably also time to provide them nukes if they are seeking nukes to be able to threaten the world. Of course, by delivery time, it should be a used weapon.
Mike
What’s going on in Europe is PC gone wild. If they really had rule of law (instead of this open borders EU garbage) then especially with all the cameras everywhere, they could enforce the laws and put lowlife scums behind bars who throw rocks or whatever. At another level it’s people’s natural right to defend themselves from attack. Do you see this right being upheld in Europe? Hell no.
I’d like to hear MD’s opinion on this, but Jan Paul hit the nail samck on the head. Economics has a great deal to do with the Middle East’s relation’s with the West. IF some one could wave the magic wand and somehow miracle a stable, vibrant market economy into Syria, Iraq, and Iran…attitudes and extremist positions might change overnight.
Too much emphasis is put on the fact of religion. Iraqis, at least, are very much like Americans in their religious commitment. They may go to church/mosque once a week or so, but God nor religion crosses their mind until the next Sunday/Saturday comes along. Then again, some Iraqis are fanatical about their religion. But that first group seems only to become fanatical when a convenient excuse for bad behavior is needed.
Adam Smith was very right in that industrialization will make a nation very rich, very fast. Singapore, Taiwan come
to mind.
A very intelligent man, who has never been to Iraq, recently told me why he feels that the main reason America is not well liked throughout the poor nations of the world. His, answer: our piece of the pie is bigger than theirs. Our families have two and three cars and they have none. Simple as that. After my year and a half in Baghdad, I would say that his idea holds water.
So, the endstate is to see Iraq become rich. How does pulling our troops out speed that process up? How does stopping short of ANY goal help the future in any way of Iraqis? People are People, doesn’t matter if they are yellow, brown, purple, neon, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or Martian. The rift between the Mid-East came from the indusrialization of the West at a time that the Mid-East was contented to remain in the 8th century. Same thing with Africa.
“why you don’t hear the moderate muslim speak out agianst the violence and killings of innocent people.”
All you have to do is listen. I’ve heard many radio interviews with Muslim clerics all of who stated very clearly that violence is not the way, and that it goes against Islam. Very similar to what most Christian clergy say.
Are all conservatives to be measured by the chicken-hawk nature of our current administration?
A Muslim viewing recent American actions could easily conclude that all Americans are proponents of solving every problem simply by dropping bombs.