Immigration cannot be resolved WITHOUT amnesty
If the government began seriously cracking down on the employers of illegal immigrants without first providing a path for the ones that are here to remain and work legally, it would:
- Disrupt (perhaps fatally) many, many American businesses, large and small
- Throw 20 million desperate illegal immigrants onto the streets with no legal means of earning a living
I know many of you want to “kick all those law breaker/invaders out”. And you can pretend that as the government begins cracking down on employers the illegal workers will repatriate in an orderly fashion. But it won’t go down that way. It would instead create a very, very dangerous security (and perhaps humanitarian) situation.
But, Americans suspect (with good reason) that “amnesty first” would be a trick, just like it was under Reagan. They suspect that we would end up legalizing the ones that are here and still keep the flood gates open to illegal, or dramatically increased legal, immigration. Thus the comprehensive deal was rejected.
So, here’s the question: If the government was really serious about eliminating future illegal immigration, what proposal (that included keeping the ones that are already here) would you accept? In other words, what would it take for you to trust the government this time?
UPDATE: While it is technically true that illegal aliens are here illegally, we definitely invited and welcomed them. By “we” I mean our business community and our business-friendly (i.e. paid for) US congress. So to call them “illegals” is really only half true. You can disagree with what was done, but you can’t say we didn’t do it.
None. And I will work until I drop dead to impeach each and everyone who supported this type of approach.
There are no consequences for those who broke into our country and steal our resources. They are too stupid and lazy to fix their own country and are counting on US citizens to be the same. Every illegal Latin American national in our country is supporting the corrupt dictators in their country off the backs of our taxpayers and future generations.
Lefty
I’m one of the people who happens to think deportation is the way to go.
These people deserve NOTHING from the U.S. taxpayer and your premise that we should legalize the illegals is flawed from the start. It also flies in the face of our immigration laws and rewards the lawless.
I realize “mass deportation” is probably not possible, so a steady process is precisely what’s called for with this issue. Here’s what I think and I’m certain the left will be slamming me about the head and shoulders for this inhumane way of thinking;
Our initial step needs to be securing our borders – north and south – but particular emphasis on the southern border. Now….
1. First, we need to define our terms. They are NOT “undocumented immigrants,” They’re illegal aliens. That’s a fact. If “green card” holders are legal aliens, these people are clearly illegal aliens.
2. ALL law enforcement agencies should be dealing with this issue. If an illegal is identified, arrest him and take the appropriate action to deport him.
3. NO public services of any kind should be given to a person without legal status. NO schools, NO hospitals (except in a documented EMERGENCY situation meaning no ER visits for colds and coughs, minor nicks and scrapes, etc.) NO nothing.
4. Any employer who knowingly hires an illegal should be fined $500K per instance. This would end this practice pretty quick I’d guess.
5. Any landlord who knowingly rents to an illegal should be fined $25K per instance. This would stop this too!
6. NO driver’s Licenses. Any state ignoring this rule would sacrifice ALL Federal funding for EVERYTHING. This IS a Constitutional issue affecting the entire Nation and is NOT a States Rights issue.
7. NO legal avenues for illegals. These people have no rights under our Constitution, so let them go back to whatever country they came from and either a. Sue from there, or b. Work toward legal entry to the U.S. You know, the same way our ancestors had to do it. (Now there’s a novel idea.)
Here’s the bottom line; cut off the gravy train and get these law-breakers out.
OK. Now you can all tell me what a hate-monger I am. Let’s see, if we got rid of these people, the farmers, construction companies, etc, etc, would be FORCED to pay Americans a living wage for doing the jobs “Americans don’t want to do.”
Yes, it looks harsh, but imagine full employment in the U.S. and all the wonderful tax dollars flowing into the federal and state coffers. If there’s not enough Americans to do these jobs, we could then decide how many foreigners we need, and a legal process for bringing them into the Country.
Hammer away……..
Sgt Mac: Your plan is a recipe for widespread and dangerous civil disorder. It is irresponsible to throw 20 million illegal aliens out of work. Many can no or will not go home in an orderly fashion. Some will riot and innocent Americans will suffer.
Innocent Americans have suffered, and continue to suffer. For the “some” who riot, we needed to weed these savages out anyway. That is why we pay police, who are busy catching and releasing them.
GA Patriot: When you say “weed these savages out” are you open to deporting the felons and letting the others stay?
Or are you a “deport ‘em all” guy?
I believe in active deportation of all felonies as well as misdemeanors. Anyone commiting one crime is usually guilty of many others that were previously undetected.
I believe in attrition through enforcement – e-verify manditory for all employers with serious penalties and criminal charges for those who are employing “undocumented” workers. After a few go to jail, they will self-deport or go to Canada. Do not care which, although Canadians will probably have a preference.
We have immigration laws in place, and no one has the right to circumvent them for obscene profits. If your concern is not the slave labor at below market rates but buy into “just feeding my family” and “hard working” mentality, you have no right to expect me to pay healthcare and schooling costs for these hard working idiots who continue to breed families they cannot afford to feed without breaking laws.
SAVE Act Introduced in the Senate
December 3rd, 2007 by JohnKonop
This is a real solution! Why would anyone disagree?
NUSA-Last week two versions of Rep. Heath Shuler’s (D-N.C.) SAVE Act (Secure America with Verification Enforcement [H.R. 4088]) were introduced in the Senate by Senators Mark Pryor (D-Ark.), Mary Landrieu (D-La.) and David Vitter (R-La.). The Pryor/Landrieu bill is S. 2368 and Sen. Vitter’s bill is S. 2366. Both bills are identical and have been endorsed by NumbersUSA. The SAVE Act will require all employers to use the electronic verification system to keep illegal aliens out of U.S. jobs. NumbersUSA believes that this legislation originating on the Democratic side of the House is just the vehicle to give us a chance to actually pass immigration legislation through a Democratic-controlled Congress that would significantly improve the lives of most Americans. “It’s the one [immigration] bill that will pass this Congress,” said Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus Chairman Brian Bilbray (R-Calif.) in an interview with The Hill. “We have to make this about illegal employment and crack down on employers.”
Shuler targets immigration
Is this not what the American people want?
CT-Employers would be required to verify their workers are in the U.S. legally, under a bill Rep. Heath Shuler will introduce next week
Shuler, D-Waynesville, who said turning off the employment magnet will reduce illegal immigration, has added 75 House Democratic and Republican co-sponsors for the measure. The bill would require employers to verify workers’ status through a Department of Homeland Security database, which currently is voluntary.
“North Carolina is dealing with one of the fastest-growing illegal immigrant populations in the country,” Shuler said. “This legislation represents a common-sense answer to the immigration problem facing our nation.”
Shuler’s bill also would add 8,000 Border Patrol agents, increase aerial surveillance of the border and spend more on workplace enforcement of immigration laws. So far, 41 other Democrats and 34 Republicans have agreed to co-sponsor the bill, including Reps. Mike McIntyre, Sue Myrick, Walter Jones and Robin Hayes of North Carolina.
READ MORE
JohnKonop: What does the SAVE Act do about existing illegal immigrants?
Existing illegals will probably go home without jobs. Supposedly, they came here because of the jobs, although the benefits provided by stupid people have certainly added to the attraction.
Doing nothing, as in our current policy, has not helped. And that amnesty bill would not have reduced the numbers here already, but increased them substantially because they can then invite cousins, siblings, grandparents.
So, lets try enforcing the laws against employers and see what happens. Unless you are an illegal alien employer, you should have no problem with this approach.
GA Partiot: You will still be screaming about illegal immigration 15 years from now if you can’t comprimise.
Are you saying you could not accept a bill that:
1) gave amnesty to everybody that’s already here
2) eliminated illegal employment by strongly cracking down on employers
3) implemented a 3-year legal immigration time out
Mr Konop the SAVE Act is an amnesty bill supported by traiters!!!!!
The real (and only viable) solution is to admit we need the workers then devise a plan to account for them. America’s economy cannot survive the loss of at least 5% of the workforce (we’ll have to respectfully disagree on this one Mac).
We could make exceptions for immigrants that join the military. Also we could let employers grant emergency visa program if they are paying living wages and honestly are trying to hire Americans.
I find this odd if unemployment is so low.
Thousands apply for limited jobs as local economy drags
Lefty – I can’t speak for Ga Patriot, but as for me…..
You said:
Are you saying you could not accept a bill that:
1) gave amnesty to everybody that’s already here.
NO WAY NO HOW They broke our laws and must leave. If they choose NOT to leave, we can show them the door.
2) eliminated illegal employment by strongly cracking down on employers.
I think I already answered this one in my post above. BIG FINES for hiring OR renting to an illeagal.
3) implemented a 3-year legal immigration time out
You’re joking on this one right? Why should we halt LEGAL immigration? That punishes those who’ve played by the rules in place in favor of outlaws. NO NO NO!
Come on Lefty, you can do better than this…….
English Only
The bill is supported by Numbers USA and most immigration reform groups I do not get your point!
John –
What English Only means is that the bill offers amnesty for those already here. Have I got that right English Only?
Bart – We can agree to disagree. However, your assertion that at least 5% of the workforce will be put out of a job is not supported by any of the data I’ve read. Where did you get that from?
SgtMac
I do not think the bill does that.
SgtMac: I was trying to find a way that you guys could believe that the govt was serious about enforcement.
Plus, legal immigration is tricky. Would you be happy if illegal immigration was eliminated via tough enforcement BUT legal immigration thresholds were thrown up to 3 million per year?
Lefthook
Why do you think we need 3 million immigrants a year?
Did you read we are running out of water?
Lefthook
If you’re worried that things would happen too fast and disrupt the economy (20 million + illegals) then you’re not very familiar with how our government operates. They’re “high tech” when it pays and “incompetent” when it pays too. It’s an uphill battle all the way. Any “doomsday scenario” about “dissapearing illegals” is just “fantasy football”.
FYI
BusinessWeek & the Labor Shortage Myth
Business Week has been curiously reality based about wages and immigration, considering who buys their advertising. They again debunk the notion that there is a labor shortage and we must open up the immigration spigots.
BusinessWeek: …A North American economist at Merrill Lynch…is one of a number of economists who say the concerns about too few workers are vastly overblown… Rosenberg argues the simplest way to gauge whether there’s a worker shortage is to look at the price of labor. According to the basic laws of economics, the tighter the supply of labor, the more it should cost. So if the economy were operating with full or near-full employment, we would be seeing an “explosion in labor compensation,” he says.
The price of labor, however, is hardly surging. In fact, key indicators of employee costs show they are tracking or trailing inflation. Average hourly earnings are running at 3.9% year over year, and the employment cost index is at 3.5% year over year.
Most Americans certainly aren’t finding their incomes exploding. The wages of 80% of the U.S. workforce—made up of nonsupervisory workers—have been stagnating since the late-1990s boom ended. On Aug. 20, the government released data that showed the average household income increased 4.1% in 2005, to $55,238. But that’s still below the average household income in 2000.
…Even as the unemployment rate has declined in recent years, millions of Americans have left the workforce and stopped looking for jobs. The government’s Bureau of Labor Statistics has a dedicated category for “discouraged” workers who believe no positions are available to them. If the percentage of Americans participating in the workforce were the same now as it was in 2000, the number officially counted as unemployed would be 9.1 million, rather than 7.1 million. The unemployment rate would be 5.8%, instead of 4.6%.
No amnesty never, ever for those already here. From what I have seen of the neighborhoods they live in and the schools they have overpopulated with non-English speaking and free lunch needing underachievers, as well as the devastation of our healthcare system, gangs, drugs, drunken driving – these people have worn out their welcome and need to go home yesterday. They are arrogant, demanding and unwilling to accept the culture of the hand that feeds them.
Self-depoortation through attrition. Enforce the verification system for employers and secure the border and lets see how the job picture changes. Stop in at a day labor site and talk to the black day laborers (citizens) who are left behind daily in favor of the non-citizens, and see what their opinions of illegal workers are. I have. Our employers, large and small, are outrageous. They do not care about these illegals, only slave labor.
Mac,
In a previous discussion, I sourced the data that illegals make up about 5% of America’s workforce.
If that many workers are deported, even incrementally, it would have a devastating effect on our economy.
Instead of punishing employers for hiring hard workers to fulfill jobs nobody else will perform for reasonable wages (see unions), why not direct all efforts toward closing the border first. By comparison, this is similar to arresting a guy for smoking dope while being unable to shut off the supply. In other words, it only exacerbates the problem instead of addressing it at the source.
Bart
The illegal immigrants are here for tax payer subsidized jobs you support.
The taxpayers never paid the healthcare for the union workers – they were paid a decent living wage and paid their own healthcare. They also lived decently. You cannot equate a union worker with an illegal unless you factor in the neighborhood destruction, school expense, healthcare decimation, crime, drunk driving, gangs, drugs and all the rest of the problems third world people have brought to our nation by their numbers. My dad belonged to a union and we lived single family in a single family home, paid income taxes, property taxes and all the rest.
5% of the workforce? Since most work for cash under private contractors or hired by sorry citizens for cash, that number is but a drop in the bucket. And if only 5% of the workforce – 146 million per Bureau of Labor Statistics – would be only 7.3 million illegals employed. Since we allow 2 million LEGAL IMMIGRANTS per year, the need should have been more than satisfied. Job growth has not accounted for that much of an increase.
The cost of assimilation or lack thereof with the illegals and the burden of the costs to the taxpayer and future generations must be considered when discussing workers. Employers decide the type of person when they hire someone full time that will best represent them and the culture of their company. Since taxpayers are shouldering an unfair burden of these illegals for obscene profits of a few, we should decide whom we allow into our country to do these jobs. And I do not accept the premise that Americans won’t do the jobs – they will. Except Americans don’t want to live like pigs and parasites for government programs. We play be the rules and have pride.
John,
You dems are here to support redistribution of taxpayer revenue to subsidize unions, freeloaders and other dependents thus creating the need for workers who cannot qualify for government handouts.
Bart
You are for Americans paying for schools, healthcare,…. for illegal immigrants only!
Nanny, nanny boo boo….I know you are, but what am I…LOL!
I addressed my post to Sgt. Mac on one of the few issues where we have disagreement. If you would like to join in the conversation John, try to type something other than your usual boiler plate response.
Bart
Any Country unable or unwilling to protect its own borders risks its own sovereignty. That’s a fact. If you doubt that, take a look at the member Nations of the EU. They can “legally” move between member Nations and the practice of that movement is killing some of them because they simply can’t afford the influx of millions. It strains every resource to the breaking point. We have the same problem with illegals and it’s breking the bank.
You and I are on the same page with regard to redistribution of wealth, but that redistribution MUST include a discussion about redistribution to illegals. It’s bad enoough the left wants to take from some to pay for others, but at least the “others” in this case are here legally. I’m not prpared to spend one thin dime on someone who doesn’t even repect our laws.
I did some research on the 5% you mentioned and I’ve found a number of items that put that number somewhere around 2 to 3.5%, but no higher. I’d argue that we DO have enough LEGAL unemplpoyed people right here in the good old USA to address the issue without allowing an estimated 20 million illegals to stay put.
I know we’ll continue to disagree on this, but that’s fine. It proves that Conservative Americans can debate an issue without throwing bombs or attacking.
John – Sometimes you make good points, and other times you repeat things ad nauseum. Why bring in “other” issues to a debate about amnesty? I agree there are many issues that blend together, but if we keep going off on tangents, we’ll never get anywhere.
Bart
Who is paying for illegal immmigrants schools….?
And even if you made them all legal they would not pay enough in taxes to cover the cost!
So your idea is lower wages for American jobs who pay taxes with heath coverage and replace them with non- Americans who do not!
Mac,
We agree on the border, your first paragraph 100%. There is no way we can continue to allow the flood of illegals to enter unimpeded.
It’s the nuts and bolts of the solution where many within the GOP differ. I would argue that America is already providing for too many of its ‘legal’ citizens which effectively removes these freeloaders from the workforce. The need for workers is created by our own redistribution of wealth policies.
Most of those entering this country illegally do so not to commit crimes, but to find work. IMHO, we need to address those already here with by implementing a worker program so that they will at least pay taxes (John’s point considered…if the standard is set to ensure all workers at least break even on tax in vs. benefits out, we would have a huge problem on our hands).
Google – illegal immigration workforce percentage — first response, a NPR story based on Pew Research study starting with the following statement — “March 7, 2006 · The number of illegal immigrants in the United States has grown to nearly 12 million, according to a new report by the Pew Hispanic Center. Pew says that illegal immigrants make up nearly five percent of the labor force. About 20 percent of that population works in construction, and four percent is employed in agriculture.”
That number is low as I think we all agree the number of illegals far exceeds 12M…probably more like 20M. There is no reasonable way to take that many workers out of the workforce without doing irreperable harm to our economy.
I enjoy having a dialogue on this topic with you Mac and sincerely believe if pols would do the same w/o the demagoguery, we could come to a rational decison that would finally address this issue.
Bart
As a fiscal liberal you want to add more people that take out more in social service cost than pay taxes and make it up in volume! No wonder we are 10 trillion in debt and growing with leadership like you in the both Parties!
John,
Who pays if they don’t go to school…? (Not saying I agree with the policy, but the alternative presents a whole new set of consequences).
Do you support removing all people who take more than they pay in from the U.S.? According to most reports, about 50% of the population has a net zero federal tax responsibility. Where would you send 200M people?
My idea is to address the problem w/o the partisan (even xenophobic) hyperbole. The federal government opened the gates in so many ways through non-secure borders and redistribution of wealth. The problem is complex requiring a comprehensive bi-partisan solution. The myopic view of punishing employers does nothing but create more bureaucracy, more government regulation and more spending without actually addressing the problem at the source.
John,
Re: your post 33 — honestly…do you ever think before you type. Do you have the mental capacity to get past baseless personal attacks to actually have a dialogue on a level above 2nd grade? See my post 34, then reply.
Also John, you still haven’t answered the question; Do you support a national ID card for all people in the U.S.?
Bart
How is that a personal attack it is the truth?
Bart
We have partial agreement, but ostensibly granting 20 million illegals “legal” status (tantamount to amnesty) just because they’re already here is certainly not the answer. That would make the Founders cringe.
We need a plan that forces these people out of the Country NOW and a mechanism to bring them in legally if we need them and ONLY if we need them.
If you assume that your number of 5% is close to accurate (and I’m not saying it is), our own unemployed should be our first choice to fill these jobs. This accomplishes a few things;
a. It gets the illegals OUT.
b. It puts Americans to work.
c. It forces amployers to pay these people at least the minimum wage.
I wrote a piece for Human Events some time back about using high school drop outs to fill some of these jobs. I still contend that’s a good idea. When you consider the amount of taxpayer money already spent to educate these people, it seems to me the taxpayer has a right to expect some kind of return on the investment.
Clearly, public education hasn’t worked for these people. By getting them into the workforce, it will provide them with a steady job and the opportunity to participate in “the American dream.” After all, most of the jobs in question are unskilled labor jobs. It will also cut crime rates. According to virtually every study, high school dropouts are far more likely to commit crimes than is the person who gets a High School diploma.
I know you don’t care for this “solution,” but I’m not suggesting it’s the ONLY solution. Rather, it’s one piece of a strategy aimed at putting ALL Americans to work before we do illegals.
Of course, none of this amounts to anything if we don’t secure our borders.
Back at ya……..
Mac,
The 20M already here have real amnesty. They can get IDs, Social Security cards, buy vehicles, congregate without worry of deportation.
I think it is far fetched to think this bureaucratic morass of a government can deport 20 illegals, much less 20M. We need a plan to solve the problem as it is today that was created by the socialistic government.
As for dropouts; why should a business owner be forced to hire a kid who cannot even complete school? That is the problem my friend encountered in his landscape business; hiring loser kids who when they showed up (late) for work were at least drunk if not tripping out on one of the many mind altering drugs available to them. On this, we are definitely in disagreement from both a practical standpoint and philosophical with regard to keeping government regulation out of small business.
Secure the borders, address those already here…then let’s see what happens.
Think of it like a trade war: if you do me, I’ll retaliate.
Do you folks really want me coming home, because you kicked out the foreigners?
Think it through: illegal immigrants or . . . me.
Davis
Do you have a legal visa for work? What would happen in China if you did not have a visa for work?
Hong Kong Harry
Welcome Home!
laurel healthcare…
submariners Hinduism allocatable Noah Carrara surpasses …