Republicans telling lies 11/30/06
Representative Steve “No Money for Katrina Victims” King (R-IA) released a report that claimed illegal immigrants murdered more people this year than all the combined deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan since both wars began. His math comes out to 4,380 Americans murdered by illegals each year out of around 17,000 total, more than 25%.
Dennis Prager, a right-wing radio hack, attacked the Muslim Representative Keith Ellison (D-MN) in a newspaper column, claiming that when he is sworn in, he will insist that the Koran is used instead of the bible. Prager says “the act undermines American civilization.” Yet the ceremony doesn’t even involve a holy book, just ‘raise your hand and swear to uphold the Constitution’.
Al
Illegal immigrant gangs according to Newsweek are responsible for most the meth that is distributed in America. You can look it up yourself google MS 13 you will get a real feel who you are defending.
Also about 1 in 12 illegal immigrants in the Country are felons. That means we have somewhere between 800K to 1.4 mm felons in our country her illegal. We also know that MS 13 a Para-military Central American gang has ties to terrorist groups.
I would say Illegal immigrant gangs have done more to terrorize our Country than the destruction to our troops in Iraq. In fact I think the FBI or police would back me up.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
http://judiciary.house.gov/HearingTestimony.aspx?ID=298
One of the most notorious gangs – MS-13 – is international in scope and has 8,000 to 10,000 active members operating a sophisticated network of organized units in 31 states. MS-13 has a significant presence in Northern Virginia, New York, California, and Texas, but can also be found in Oregon City, Oregon, and Omaha, Nebraska. Internationally, the gang is estimated to have as many as 50,000 members.
MS-13 is a violent gang comprised primarily of illegal immigrants from Central America, which originated in Los Angeles and has now spread across the country. They were recently dubbed by Newsweek as “the most dangerous gang in America.”
Both Parties have leaders that do not tell the truth. You really do not believe that Kennedy, Clinton, Frank…. are really choir boys?
How about posting examples of Barny Frank and Ted Kennedy not telling the truth, and we can have a discussion.
I didn’t touch the subject of illegal immigrant crime, I focused solely on murder and the claim made by King, which is patently false.
Are you justifying his dishonesty for the sake of the greater good? Or do you agree with his math on this?
Barney Frank said he did not know about the whore house being run out of his apartment.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/tours/scandal/gobie2.htm
“The girls turned to me and said, ‘You’re just like her,’ ” Gobie recalled in an interview yesterday. “That’s when I realized that I was in the middle of a developing story that could be worth something someday. I told them, ‘One day, don’t be surprised if you see me on TV.’ ”
Gobie’s dream has come true. His accusation that Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) knew that Gobie had operated a prostitution service out of Frank’s Capitol Hill apartment became national news after it was first reported Friday by the Washington Times.
Frank, one of two openly gay members of Congress, confirmed Friday that he paid Gobie for sex, hired him with personal funds as an aide and wrote letters on congressional stationery on his behalf to Virginia probation officials, but Frank said he fired Gobie when he learned that clients were visiting the apartment.
Ted Kennedy Chappaquiddick incident
On July 18, 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick, Martha’s Vineyard, held in honor of the “Boiler Room Girls”, the six young women who had worked on his brother Robert’s 1968 presidential campaign[1]. Kennedy drove away with party guest Mary Jo Kopechne as a passenger in his 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88.
Kennedy claims he made a wrong turn onto an unlit road that led to Dike Bridge (also spelled Dyke Bridge), a dangerous unlit wooden bridge with no guardrail, angled sharply to the road. In the poor visibility, Kennedy drove over the side of the bridge. The car plunged into tide-swept Poucha Pond (at that location a channel) and came to rest upside down underwater. Kennedy was able to swim free of the vehicle, but passenger Kopechne was not.
Kennedy, a strong swimmer, says that he swam down trying to reach her several times but the strong tidal current prevented him from reaching the submerged vehicle. He finally made his way back to the house where the party had been held. Kennedy spent hours phoning a number of people to discuss the accident, including his lawyer and Kopechne’s parents, before being contacted by the police 10 hours after the accident. The incident quickly became a scandal.
Kennedy was publicly criticized for allegedly driving drunk (although there was no direct evidence that he was drunk), for failing to save Kopechne, for failing to summon help immediately, and for contacting not the police but rather his lawyer first. In a closed trial, Kennedy reportedly entered a plea of guilty to a controversial charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. He received a suspended sentence of two months in jail.
We all know about Clinton.
AL,
Interesting math. What about the 2,000 to 10,000 people who die from workplace related injuries? The 25,000 to 45,000 who die from automobile crashes?
And, more to your point, how many illegals were murdered in those 17,000 murders?
Most victims of murder know the murderer. (The victims just can’t come back to life and identify them. Ask Niccole Simpson and Ron Brown)
Al
I would not be shocked with that much death caused by illegal immigrants between the gangs, prison and METH.
I know all about this Ted story from ‘68, and Frank fired this guy.
Is this the best you can come up with? ‘68 and ‘89 – - –
I’m showing you a lie from mere hours ago, from a man who was only one out of eleven to grinch-out Katrina victims, and you’re attempting to turn the tables with two NON-WORK RELATED things that haven’t even taken place in the last 15 years!?!?
King is lying about his work! This is about an issue that effects millions TODAY. To be honest, it hurts your cause more than anything, having this guy spout nonsence that is easily proven false…
All this, “we need to get back to…” crap about the GOP is worthless if the truth about the issues facing the country today is too tall of an order. No?
And you can save the Whitewater rebuttal as it’s got nothing to do with politicians lying about issues facing the country right now.
Find me quotes from Democrats who are this dishonest in their portrayal of reality.
My second example is slander – yet par for the course in GOP-radioland.
You have a guy who had a whore house ran out of his apartment, and you say no big deal?
You have a guy who killed his date and did not report this to this police for one day after first getting a lawyer.And once again no big deal?
Am I missing anything?
John,
I’m not with you on the math. On the one hand it seems Latino gangs are running the country.
Then, you say they only have “8,000 to 10,000 active members operating a sophisticated network of organized units in 31 states.”
And, the classic, if over 50% of “illegal” get here legally… but stay too long… (forever I assume) how does that change or not change your numbers?
Should I assume 1 in 6 of the less than 50% who were not felons upon arrival were felons before arrival?
Do you see how confusing the rhetoric becomes?
More than half of the pool, illegals immigrants, have no felony convictions when entering legally.
So does that double the rate for established felons who come to the US?
Or, has the rate included only the convicted felons who traveled here?
And … and … and …
How did all these millions of felons get out of jail?
Ops?
John,
Back on the numbers thing. You know me. No life.
You said, “In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.”
How does that describe anything except that the LA cops, and cops in general, can’t find illegals to serve warrants?
Facts aren’t facts from time to time. The sky is blue. The moon is full. We have thousands of open warrants for crimes where we suspect illegal immigrants.
Those warrants cover what period of time? A year? Twenty years? A hundred years? How long does a warrant for murder remain open? Forever, I’d guess since there is never a limitation on trying someone for murder.
So, of warrants ISSUED, what was the total number issued last month for murder, how many remain open, how many were issued for unidentifiable illegals?
Anchor the facts in a time frame.
The sky is blue right now. The moon is full once a lunar cylce. We issue warrants for 10 murders every two weeks. One each two weeks remains open. We suspect the open warrant is for an illegal who fled the country and the warrant will never be served.
Mad Dog
That is just LA. What do you think the number looks like on a national level for violent crime and illegal immigrants?
• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
In Maryland, state corrections officials have begun a new study of prison gangs, including the growing numbers of Spanish-speaking gang members, amid mounting violence against prison workers.
“The country club Republicans may not recognize what is happening here, but those in America’s cities do,” he said. “Why are we risking the destruction of our country over this? How many unskilled workers do we need here?”
National crime statistics released by the FBI show homicides up 5 percent last year. But the real story, say experts, is what is happening in urban pockets across the country, where murders – increasingly across racial lines – are way up.
In Philadelphia’s 12th Police District shootings have almost doubled over the past year.
In Boston, the homicide rate is soaring.
In Orlando, the homicide count has reached 37, surpassing the city’s previous record.
All of this follows a national trend of decreasing violent crime through 2002.
The biggest increase in violence is in smaller cities where gang and drug problems are relatively new. In 2005, jurisdictions with populations between 50,000 and 250,000 saw homicide increases of about 12.5 percent – far larger than the big cities, says David Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.
So you’re laying the rise in crime on illegal immigration. In Boston and Hartford (two cities I cover extensively in my reading), the murders this summer during the rise were african american males involved in the drug trade. This wasn’t hispanics without papers.
Do you honestly think that a gaggle of mexicans can just walk into a city like Boston, Balitmore or Philly and start slingin on a corner one day? The gangs that own that territory would have a thing or two to say about it, and the mexicans wouldn’t win that argument.
The problem with your philosophy on illegal immigration has a lot to do with your apparant agreement with Rep. King right here…
You cannot say that the ends justify the means, and so the cause of everything wrong we will now blame on illegal immigration. I’ve heard people in the media (on radio mostly, we’ve got a guy named Howie Carr up here who has been doing it forever now) play this game since the 90s, and it hasn’t mattered in public opinion polls for this reason:
Juking stats and stretching the truth hurts your cause.
You’re in a zone right now where suddenly the effects of poverty that have been known for decades, are no longer about anything other than illegal immigration. Something is worse than last year, and you pull out the card.
The flow of immigrants didn’t spike after 2002. It was a steady amount throughout these years, so you’d have to get people to believe that in 2002 we reached a tipping point of some kind. That’s not going to happen, for a lot of reasons, but mainly because of folks like King who are going to say things like he just did.
You care about this deeply, and with that in mind, my advice would be to stay away from things that will delegitimize your cause in the minds of undecided voters.
Because I don’t doubt the negative effects of immigration on our country, but I’m not believing what you’re saying or what King is saying. It’s not convincing someone like me who knows there’s a problem, but has no patience for rants lacking objectivity or facts.
Along those same lines – what some counties in your state are doing with these raids is going to turn off the rest of the country as well. Stories about doors being kicked down and families split up, towns dying as result of it…
That’s not going to win the argument either. It turns people off. To the detriment of the country? Perhaps, but that’s how it is. So if winning the argument and having everyone buy in is your goal, then this is the wrong way to go about it.
If the goal is to not have to speak to the real issues involving health care, education, crime and poverty…then I can understand the strategy a whole lot more.
It’s identical to your bringing up scandals from ‘89 and ‘68 in response to a lie told by a Republican today. It is also identical to eeevil harping on accuracy in the media after her ‘hoax’ post went belly up.
The tactics are a spot on match across the right-wing media spectrum…divert attention from the soft spot and get the debate focused somewhere else.
I’m still trying to figure out why you’re in this game. Truth is like a 5 carat diamond in the talk arena.
FWIW, I just got through digging up over 100 recent acts of murderous violence in straight relationships for James (in another thread), and while a few of the cases involved people with foreign names, only ONE out of the 113 total cases were committed by an illegal immigrant, against his wife who was also an illegal immigrant. So regardless of how unscientific my research was, this finding amounts to less than 1% of murders committed by illegals, and zero percent where the victim was an American citizen at the hands of an illegal immigrant.
Al
Talk to someone in law enforcement and ask them about the crime wave with illegal immigrant gangs. I thnk you will be in shock
Oh, “there you go again”, with your, “I heard from a guy who said”…
Statistical analysis is a science John, and while the persuasion of a voter to decide one way or the other can often be taken care of with an anecdote orated by someone “who knows”, I’m still hung up on the fact that there are 300 million of us living in the US.
If Neilsen can figure out how many people think “Shat-tastic” is worth their time, then I’m sure we can apply some numbers to all this that don’t require a leap of faith.
Al
I do this statistic data analysis for a living and made good money predicting behavior in the financial arena. The science is based on taking a sample and than extrapolating the information. The following is a large sample;
1. • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
Anyone in the business would only conclude that most likely the homicide crime number looks bad across the Country with illegal immigrants. If you even discount this number due to many variables, you could not find anyone who would not conclude that we have a homicide and crime problem with illegal immigrants.
John,
Your sample is bad in your example.
Mad Dog
Here’s a classic.
As ice cream sales increase, juvenile crime increases. Therefore, ice cream causes juvenile crime.
Why would anyone pull ice cream sales in an investigation of juvenile crime?
You’ve pulled a sample for unsolved crimes. From looking at unsolved crimes, how can anyone predict which demographic is most likely to committ the next crime or the most crimes?
We need a sample of all crimes committed broken down by demographics to determine a percentage for each group. Then, we need to compare each demographic group to the overall sample group…. etc etc etc.
If 2/3’s of all crime committed are committed by white people and the population is 2/3’s white… and the arrest rate in the white community is 100 percent… then all other ethnic groups are over represented in unsolved crimes.
If I were doing an analysis of sales errors, I wouldn’t go to the recieving department to gather data.
Do you get what I’m trying to say about your sampling method?
MD
Mad Dog
You can spin it anyway you want, but even Democrat Joe Biden has talk about the problem with illegal immigrants gangs and crime.
John,
Excuse me? Spin? ROFL!
Pull a representative sample from a specific time period and get back to me.
From the sampling method being used, it’s impossible to make a statistical analysis of anything except the inability of the surveyor to select imput relative to the study of crime.
BTW, I did a social science internship with the Hall County District Attorneys Office.
We sampled demographics in drug cases and compared those to jury pools.
OUCH!
There were more white faces in the drug court than in the jury pool. And, the age group were about the same. Older.
I’d have to dig up my notes as my paper was never published.
As I remember, the only abnormal observation was that men in drug court were more likely to have facial hair than men in the jury pool.
And, to make the sample representative, we only sampled first time offenders.
I was not the only observer, in case you’re wondering. The study started in late 2003 and I was helping with it in 2004.
The professor suffered a series of severe strokes before the paper and the study could be published.
Mad dog call the show and will debate the issue on Saturday.
Mad Dog
BTW, Biden who favors tightening the U.S.-Mexico border with fences, said immigration is driven by money in low-wage Mexico.
Unless the political dynamics change in Mexico and U.S. employers who hire illegal immigrants are punished, illegal immigration won’t stop. “All the rest is window dressing,” he said.
An even bigger problem are illegal drugs “coming up through corrupt Mexico,” he said. “People are driving across that border with tons, tons — hear me — tons of everything from byproducts for methamphetamines, to cocaine, to heroine.”
I hope makes a run for President in ‘08!
Poor Al hates reality….lies are his style…
we all know that the illegal invaders are all law abiding victims of the angry white man….just as the Katrina survivors…
Lies are my style??? Point out a single one of them eeevil.
Pot calling the kettle black. Say hi to snerdley for me.
Al
I believe you were the first on this thread to bring up Barney Frank and Ted Kennedy. So I wouldn’t get too upset if people get “off subject”.
Al
I read the article. Too bad there’s not a spot for comments. I didn’t see anything to refute the stats. The overall decline in murders can be easily attributed to the increases in prison capacity since ‘91 due in part to privatization of prisons. The increasing percentage of illegals as part of the criminal population would be a no-brainer since we don’t exactly check criminal records at the Rio Grande.
These are just possibilities, not facts mind you, but another thing–overall criminality will increase in a community where supply for a given skillset exceeds demand. For example the market for non-English speaking leaf blowers vs. say, bloggers. The dynamics change when the former start to outnumber the latter, as in some Western communities. Mad Dog, this is a better compairison than jurors vs. suspects in Hall County.
Bill,
Ah, Bill!
I must point out that we were not looking at suspects.
We were looking at first time offenders. They had admitted guilt and been deferred to a court monitored treatment program.
So, in retrospect, the study was more likely to find a bias toward people who trusted the system to work.
So comparing them to the jury pool sort of makes sense.
These people were in the justice system for the first time. Had agreed to treatment instead of jail. If treatment failed, or they failed to meet the court mandated ‘rules’, sentence was imposed.
I saw several white males and one female have mandatory drug sentences imposed because they failed a urine test.
The urine test was mandatory and weekly. Finding a job was mandatory. Paying for the treatment and the court services were mandatory. And, some other conditions.
So all these people were felons, convicted, and the sentence already determined. They could be selected for the treatment program IF they were first timers in the justice system.
Any failure on their part and they went to jail. No further steps in criminal justice. They had either confessed or been convicted in a trial.
So no illegals could have been in the program. No one with a prior conviction could be in the program. Any violation of law triggered their ejection from the program. Which meant immediately going to jail.
So it wasn’t a measure of criminality. It was a measure of drug use among ‘normal law abiding citizens.’
We were correct to compare those people to the jury pool.
Based on my part in the study, white people were more likely to use drugs than other ethnic groups.
(It’s a summary that doesn’t disclosure the faults of the methodology) All methods have faults, including the natural bias of the people doing the study etc etc etc
I guess you’re assuming that illegals will show up for court at the same rate as white Americans?